Curse

tmakinen · Nov 07, 2007, 10:46 AM // 10:46

The elite PvE skill 'Ursan Blessing' has been the focus of quite some attention lately with opinions ranging between 'best thing since sliced bread' and 'remove all PvE skills from the game'. Of particular interest has been the use of several ursan players in the Domain of Anguish elite area which UB converts to a stomping ground for anybody who knows how to press 1 - 2 - 3.

PvE only skills are somewhat overpowered by default, that's exactly the idea why they were introduced and why they are PvE only. However, you cannot have it too good, ridiculously overpowered skills ruin a multiplayer game experience as effectively as cheats would. In combining UB and DoA we have a case of a ridiculously overpowered skill but the reason for that doesn't lie directly in UB which is only 'reasonably' overpowered for most of the game. The culprit is another PvE 'skill', the Lightbringer title track which provides additional benefits in DoA. The effects of LB are also balanced by the same criteria - a high ranking player is somewhat overpowered while displaying the title. However, these two PvE only mechanics combine multiplicatively which means that a player with UB and LB title goes beyond overpowered all the way to broken.

Then how can this be fixed? If we rebalance UB with DoA in mind, UB will be a really crappy skill everywhere else. My suggestion to resolve the situation is to either:

(a) change UB (and other blessings) so that you can only be in ursan form if you are displaying your Norn reputation title, or
(b) change UB (and other blessings) so that if you are not displaying your Norn reputation title, UB works as if you had zero ranks in that title.

Of these two, (a) is the more extreme option and requires more coding (you have to take into account title switching while in form) whereas (b) is very easy to implement. Both of them meet the objective of preventing excessive cumulation of PvE bonuses.

About my motivation for doing this - I'm not trying to kill the bear but to save it. As it is now, it is really broken and there will be a nerf, it's just a question of when and which kind. The solution that I am suggesting would end the most glaring abuse while leaving the skill unaffected for the rest of the game.

Edited by Celestial Beaver: It's probably worth linking to the existing thread also discussing this topic which can be found here. We'll leave this thread open for now.

Effendi Westland · Nov 07, 2007, 11:00 AM // 11:00

(c) Make it a ranged attack so it is effected by blinds/Line of sight.

It is not only DoA that has been made a joke because of this skill. Almost anything in HM can be owned by mindless pressing C+1.

pumpkin pie · Nov 07, 2007, 11:28 AM // 11:28

I am just wandering if OP have "exploited" the good old bear?

Why I am wandering about the motives behind wanting to nerf the bear. I don't see the point in getting rid of it because, if you want a more challenging game, DON'T BRING URSAN BLESSING WITH YOU. since you choose to bring that skill with you.... well lol...

Besides
1) I have not done DoA before and do not know that Ursan Blessing is actually that powerful, yes have it unlocked, but I did not use it because I prefer my other elite.

2) If Ursan blessing is indeed that powerful, I would love for it to remain and when its time for me to abosolutely must complet the DoA quest I would love to have that advantage too.

so i think /not signed.

A11Eur0 · Nov 07, 2007, 11:55 AM // 11:55

People have the choice whether to use ursan blessing or not. Just because some other group is doing it, doesn't mean it has ANY effect on how you play your game, how you enjoy your game, and the rewards you get from your game. Joy of instances.

lishi · Nov 07, 2007, 12:00 PM // 12:00

I think people flamed pretty much enough on the others thread.

Basicly there are 3 kind of people

1) People who dont care
2) People who say "if you dont like it dont use it"
3) People who want a balanced game.

Im pretty sure anet is on 3 group. at least they was before nightfall release.

tmakinen · Nov 07, 2007, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Please don't make this another 'nerf/don't nerf UB' thread, we have those all around the place. Instead, we should discuss that given that UB is broken in DoA and thus a barn-sized target for the nerfbat (TM), what would be the path of action with the least game-wide consequences while still addressing the core problem. I've tested UB here and there and while being good elsewhere it's game shattering only in combination with the LB effect (and arguably, but to a lesser extent with Vanguard rep vs. charr and Dwarven rep vs. destroyers - all of which my suggestion would fix). As I demonstrated elsewhere, when the LB bonus doesn't apply there's a build with very similar characteristics and performance as the bear while being totally PvP valid - the touch ranger. When you consider potential remedies, keep that build in mind as a reference point and ask yourself whether your proposed fix makes the bear better or worse than it.

pumpkin pie · Nov 07, 2007, 12:12 PM // 12:12

how can you charge straight into wanting to nerf the bear when the "if the bear should be nerf isn't even decided" yet....

Avarre · Nov 07, 2007, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Remove UB, all PvE skills and play-affecting titles. They don't make the game better.

If anet can't maintain a single set of skills that are balanced in all parts of the game, then they have failed at maintaining the game design that was originally in place. If that single set of skills was balanced everywhere, it would be a testament to balanced PvP as well as balanced PvE.

Bring back some of the playskill required by removing broken skills (ie: just about all PvE skills) and mechanics (of enemy mobs and zones).

tmakinen · Nov 07, 2007, 12:21 PM // 12:21

It is not me wanting to nerf the bear. If you didn't get my point from the original post, I don't take sides either way. All I'm saying is that given the current state of the game a nerf to UB is highly likely (they nerfed Seed of Life and TNTF! already, SY! is still another potential target). I'm working in damage mitigation mode, trying to find the smallest nerf that would bring UB below ANet's radar. So far only Effendi has done a productive contribution ...

Edit: Avarre, that is one take on the issue but it just isn't going to happen (at least in GW1). Let's try to stay realistic in what we wish and it might even have an effect

pumpkin pie · Nov 07, 2007, 12:25 PM // 12:25

O.o

i think i'll do DoA tonight.

bungusmaximus · Nov 07, 2007, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Taking away their immunity for shutdown would be nice. Just don't over-nerf, that would be a pain for Ursanlovers. It would be nice if ursan would still see play as long as it's for certain situations and not for the entire game, just like many other skills.

assassin shaun · Nov 07, 2007, 12:30 PM // 12:30

/not signed

no way if u want to have the same power amount as everyone else then unlock the skills ureself and stop moaning!

tmakinen · Nov 07, 2007, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Bears are already less immune to shutdown than a touch ranger since a bear practically must attack between skills to keep energy up whereas a toucher never attacks. Just for gits and shiggles, I found out that those pesky jotuns are pawned hard by a toucher who laughs at everything that they manage to throw at him

Edit: shaun, did you read what I wrote? No? That's what I though as well ...

Reflect · Nov 07, 2007, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Make ursan strike deal dmg that is not amor ignoring ..

tmakinen · Nov 07, 2007, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Again, touch ranger's 'damage' is not just armor ignoring, it completely bypasses all kinds of magical protections as well, and doesn't trigger any 'on damage' effects that are beneficial for the target.

Mr. G · Nov 07, 2007, 12:51 PM // 12:51

oh theres a thread here....?

sorry i didn't notice, was to busy actually playing leetist areas where you need the trinity....

milan · Nov 07, 2007, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Displaying the title will only affect realm of torment/DoA.

I honestly don't see a way to nerf this elite without it dissapearing off skill bars forever.

1 - Remove armor ignoring, We don't even know what type of damage UB does.

2 - Ranged Attack, this has possibly the best potential.

3 - Disallow PvE elite skills in 'elite' areas. - Not sure how this could be done, it's also an option to resolve the DoA, Deep, Warren etc but it doesn't resolve the whole issue that people are complaining about.

In all likelyhood it will be 1 and 2 with a couple of other preconditions to be met as well.

It will be interesting to see how they do it. Will show if they have learnt anything in the last two years about their PvE player base.

legion_rat · Nov 07, 2007, 12:51 PM // 12:51

/unsigned With UB as a Sin I might actually get a group for DoA. Instead of the cookie cutter set of players that i watch enter I can actually be one of the cookies. For some of us its not a balance thing is a chance thing,

~the rat~

cellardweller · Nov 07, 2007, 01:00 PM // 13:00

The biggest problem with the bear is that it replaces a skills set completely and can be kept up indefinitely. The changes I would make are:
1) All primary attributes are set to 0 while in bear form
2) Zealous weapons do not function in bear form
3) Remove "or Deal" from the energy gained description.
This gives you "God Mode" for 10-30% of the time rather than "above average mode" 100% of the time which would result from nerfing the ursan skills.

Star Gazer · Nov 07, 2007, 01:02 PM // 13:02

option d) remove QQers from the game and let people play the way they want to